Couple Sues Miami Doctor Over Botched Circumcision That Left Son's Penis "Unsightly"

Categories: News
circumcision-cover.jpg
New Times ran a cover story on circumcision in February
A husband and wife are suing their Miami doctor over a botched circumcision that left their infant son with a "unsightly... and permanently scarred" penis. Steven and Keka Lorenzana of Coral Gables filed suit against South Miami ob/gyn Lissette Molina on May 11. The suit claims that Molina botched their son's circumcision so badly that not even corrective surgery could completely fix her mistake.

"The psychological ramifications of any penal injury are pretty extensive," says David Llewellyn, an Atlanta-based lawyer who handles many botched circumcision cases and has been hired by the Lorenzanas. Money from a settlement or trial would likely to go towards counseling for the child, he said.

On December 1, 2008, the Lorenzanas took their son -- identified in the lawsuit by the initials C.L. -- to South Miami Hospital. There, Molina circumcised the infant using a 1.3 GOMCO clamp, the most commonly used circumcision tool in the U.S.

>According to the lawsuit, however, Molina "failed to align the foreskin on the bell of the GOMCO clamp before engaging the nut on the base plate, closing the clamp, and excising the foreskin, resulting in leaving too much foreskin on the ventral side of the penis."

For more than two years, the Lorenzanas' fears about their son's circumcision were waylaid by pediatricians. One told the parents that C.L. "would grow into it."

But on April of 2011, Keka Lorenzana met Molina for a check-up and expressed concern about her son's penis. She showed Molina pictures and the ob/gyn told her to consult a urologist.

That's when the Lorenzanas realized the extent of their son's injuries. In September, C.L. underwent corrective surgery at a hospital in Atlanta but, according to the lawsuit, "the ventral side of (his) penis is still unsightly and is permanently scarred."

Neither the Lorenzanas nor Dr. Molina could be reached for comment, but the lawsuit notes that Molina has denied any negligence. We will update if we hear from any of them.

C.L.'s lawyers say that the boy, now three and a half years old, will likely need counseling to overcome the lasting trauma from the operation gone wrong.

"When skin is rearranged on the penis, that is going to affect (1) how it looks and (2) how it feels and very well may affect his sexual life," says Llewellyn, who has a website devoted to circumcision lawsuits.

"Men tend to be very concerned about how their penis looks," he says. "I think that always a tremendous psychological effect on boys and men."

Follow Miami New Times on Facebook and Twitter @MiamiNewTimes. Follow this journalist on Twitter @MikeMillerMiami.

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53 comments
Zahnmann007
Zahnmann007

When will people learn? Baby boys' bodies are their property. Circumcision is a form of sexual battery for profit. A very ugly crime indeed.

Catie
Catie

Why are people STILL circumcising their sons? In the world we live in now, there's NO excuse to not be fully informed about circumcision before you have a child. Why do these people not know about google?

Chad Rivera
Chad Rivera

WHEN WILL THIS INSANITY END. THIS 'DOCTOR' BUTCHERED THE BOYS' PENIS. I CALL THAT A SEX CRIME.

Lynn
Lynn

What do you expect to happen when you amputate part of the penis? Obviously it's going to come out scarred and deformed! The only victim in this situation is the child, who was a victim to his parents' stupidity and his doctor's greed.

Mglass
Mglass

How do you prevent botched circumcisions? Don't circumcise! Britain began to turn away from circumcision in 1949, after Dr Douglas Gairdner pointed out that this would prevent about 16 deaths a year. And guess what: British men have a life expectancy that is two years higher than American men. Circumcision enthusiasts routinely overstate the alleged benefits and understate the risks of circumcision. 

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

The parents would have been aware of or informed of the risks when they made the decision to have this done to their child. They are the ones who should be held accountable. What blows my mind is the mentality of whole communities who breed superficial and shallow ways of thinking by insisting circumcision be done for reasons such as 1. To look like dad 2. Because the mother prefers herself to have sex with a circed penis and assumes in her ignorants that all other women do to 3. Hygeine when your child will more than likley shower every day of their life 4. HIV STD doing it for this reason will only get your child infected later in life (tell them to use condom instead). Ultamitley those inclined to do this are locked in an unfalable mindset of justification that they pass through generations because they cant bear the fact that they have done the wrong thing to their child. There are so many ignorant superficial people out their who do nothing but damage the fabric of society with their simple selfish views. The parent should not get a cent.

Rebecca Fine
Rebecca Fine

If parents are going to have their boys circumcised, I wish they would have them circed by someone experienced at doing thousands of them - like a mohel.  Most mohels will circumcise non-Jewish boys, and this is why so many people, including The Queen and celebrities (eg. Sandra Bullock) have their boys done this way.  Why trust a pediatrician like the one in this article who probably has very little experience?

CountWestwest
CountWestwest

Most damage from circumcision is only noticeable when the boy becomes a teenager, and at that age he will never admit that there is something wrong with his penis, much less show it to his mom or dad. The estimate of botched circumcisions is as high as 10%. Any parent who does this to a child is not fit to be a parent.

Pat
Pat

While hospitals may have a hard time waking up to the concept that infant circumcision is unethical, I'm guessing they will start to reconsider their actions following costly lawsuits like this.

With the problem of circumcision this country, there's undoubtedly a higher number of botched operations than what ends up in court. If more people sued as a result, maybe the doctors would finally realize what they're doing isn't such a good idea.

June Park
June Park

I am just appalled that any US doctor still does this. Child abuse laws say you cannot leave a mark. Courts have repeatedly ruled that parents cannot change their children's bodies nor martyr them for any reason other than all other medical treatments failing and death being imminent if no surgery occurs.  I have not even begun discussing the 14th Amendment which gives ALL people the same rights under our laws which include the right to practice the religion of their choice, if you are circumcised you cannot technically do this, and also the right to have intact genitals. Only in America do we follow these laws for girls only but not boys. Sexism at its finest all because doctors want to be paid. They are in it for the money people. They don't even use pain killers in most situations.

http://www.plasmetic.com/skin/...

http://www.beyondthebris.com/

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

Locuta de Bjorg
Locuta de Bjorg

All circumcisions make the penis unsightly. It also makes an abnormal penis that cannot function properly. Obstetricians, who specialize in the FEMALE reproductive tract, have a well-deserved reputation for doing real chop-jobs. Any doctor who does this to a child is an unethical quack who should lose his/her license.

Hospitals would be wise to not allow these mutilations to be performed on their premises.  Not only does it expose them to legal action, but it also has a morally and psychologically corrupting effect on the staff. If they are OK with doing a mutilation on a helpless child, what will they be OK with doing to you when you are unable to defend yourself?

Joseph Lewis
Joseph Lewis

Remember folks, "there are no risks" to circumcising your perfectly healthy child... That is if you ignore botches like these... and infections... or full and partial ablations... oh! and death... "There are no risks," and if they are, they're definitely "worth it." NOT! What's this kid gonna say when he grows up? "Gee thanks mom and dad..."

CMarie
CMarie

Uh, just for the record, they're ALL permanently scarred.  I realize this case has extensive damage, but any circumcised penis IS scarred for life.  

Intactivist
Intactivist

All circumcised penises are scarred. This was completely avoidable by leaving his penis alone.

Colleen Gelinas
Colleen Gelinas

reason #100 NOT to circumcise in the first place.....It should be the child's decision.  The child should sue his parents for the disfigurement.

Frederick Rhodes
Frederick Rhodes

Denying negligence means that Molina did a horrible job on purpose knowing well that she would be causing this child to grow up and fail sexually. She is using circumcision as a form of eugenics on sons of men she does not want to become breeders.

seep
seep

why did they choose to circumcise him?  Are they Jewish?

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Catie Wrote"  "Why do these people not know about google?"They simply do not want to know.  They willl absolutely refuse to read information placed directly in front of them.  They have been influenced early in life and refuse to learn or accept anything else.They will defend these actions by claiming "Studies can be written to show anything" and "next week, there will be another study showing the opposite."This is nothing more than a defense.  Before a study can be accepted, it has to have two more studies that find the same (or very similar) result.  However,there can be deception.  The infamous African Studies was actually one study carried out in three towns.  The researchers engaged in a bit of deception by separating out the cities as three seperate studies when they were all the same methods, same type of study subjects, etc.  Other than the cities, they were all the same.

Even with that, they originally scheduled the study to run 24 months but ended it at 11 months.  There is evidence that the study was not coming out to support circumcision and apparently it was ended early to get the desired outcome.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

 Joeyblogger wrote:  "4. HIV STD doing it for this reason will only get your child infected later in life (tell them to use condom instead)."

The problem with this is research has shown that circumcised males are significantly less likely to use condoms.  The conclusion was that circumcision has such an impact on sensitivity that a condom is actually like putting on a second condom over another virtually eliminating the pleasure  of sex.  Circumcised men are resistant to wearing condoms and are therefore at significantly greater risk of HIV. 

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Joeyblogger wrote>  "The parents would have been aware of or informed of the risks when they made the decision to have this done to their child."

They should have been advised of the risks but that is often not the case.  Often the risks are characterized as "very low" and minor such as "bleeding," "slight risk of infection," etc

"They are the ones who should be held accountable."

Well, no.  The parents are typically not trained medical experts.  They hire and pay the doctor for his expertise as they would hire a lawyer in a court case.  Typically, the parents are given little of the expert advice they pay for.

"4. HIV STD doing it for this reason will only get your child infected later in life (tell them to use condom instead)."

Yes, the whole HIV scare is bogus.  If the man (child) ejaculates, he will pass infected body fluids to his partner regardless of whether he has a foreskin or not.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Rebecca Fine wrote"  "If parents are going to have their boys circumcised, I wish they would have them circed by someone experienced at doing thousands of them - like a mohel."

There is no level of expertise that will prevent botched circumcisions.  One case that went to court, the Connecticutt doctor had performed "more than 10,000 circumcisions" by his testimony.  How much more experience is needed?

There have been two incidences in New York City of mohels infecting infants with the herpes virus.  Two boys died and three more suffered massive brain damage from the virus.  Experience is no guarantee.

Lynn
Lynn

How do you safely remove healthy, functioning erogenous tissue from the penis of a nonconsenting infant?

BodyClaim
BodyClaim

Uhm, mohels have to perform their first circumcision sometime. Title is no guarantee of experience or skill. And no amount of skill can ever make circumcision "safe." It's an intrinsically harmful practice at odds with both medical and religious ethics.

CountWestwest
CountWestwest

Mohels can be as incompetent as doctors; http://failedmessiah.typepad.c...

Any parent that lets a "mohel" suck the bleeding penis of their baby should be jailed along with their mohel. Just recently there was an article of a partially amputated penis during a circumcision in Israel. The only safe circumcision is the one that isn't done.,

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Pat Wrote:'While hospitals may have a hard time waking up to the concept that infant circumcision is unethical, I'm guessing they will start to reconsider their actions following costly lawsuits like this."Don't count on it.  When Atlanta's Northside Hospital lost a lawsuit costing them $22.8 million dollars, they went on a campaign to keep the infant circumcision rate high at the hospital.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Locuta de Bjorg

“Hospitals would be wise to not allow thesemutilations to be performed on their premises.”

Well, “Yes,” but it is a major source of income for them.  Back in the 1980’s, Atlanta’s NorthsideHospital was responsible for two boys losing their penises on the same day,same shift.  The total legal settlementwas $22.8 million.  How did Northsiderespond?  They went on a campaign topromote and advocate infant circumcision to keep the rate from falling and the revenuesfrom disappearing.  In fact, thecircumcision rate for white babies did fall rather drastically but the rate forblack babies increased enough to completely off set the decline in the whitecircumcision rate and show a slight increase in the total circumcision rate.

it appears that the only time a hospital is willing to get out of thecircumcision business is when there has been a circumcision death such as theone at Airline Memorial Hospital in Texas. Airline will not allow circumcisions to be performed on their premisesany longer.  There are several otherhospitals that no longer allow the practice in their facilities.  I don’t know if this is because of deaths orsomething else.

Indeed, there is substantial risk for thehospitals involved.  But there are alsosubstantial profits too.  They take acalculated risk every time they allow a circumcision and the doctors also takea calculated risk.  Obviously, the rewardis great as the risk is also great.

f b
f b

Most Catholics do it too.. it is not a sacrament...at least not anymore.

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

The circumcision drive in Africa is something thatwestern developed countries will now distance themselves from due to carefulanalysis and publication of multiple reviews of findings which obliterate themto pieces. The poor and very sad strategies being applied in Africa highlightthe reasons why they have a HIV epidemic.I beleive that internet and developed communications is playing a role in dampening misinformatioin distrobuted via traditional media. The truth is there and available at the fingertips of most however "sometimes we only see what we want to see" regardless.

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

Accepted. The parents "should" have been......

As a parent I feel ulimatley responsible for all the decisions I make for my kids whether I'm informed or not. Its this fact that motivates me to firstly identify matters which are of importance and secondly prompt a response of questioning and self education.

Its getting harder and harder for people to plead ignorance these days.

Alot of disclaimers will fore warn of possible but unlikley complications including death so if the doctor does not have anything in writing he may be in a spot of bother.

Lynn
Lynn

There's been more than two, Ohara30075. Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer is STILL practicing circumcision (despite the NY department of health telling him to stop 6 years ago after he killed the one infant) and has infected a third infant with herpes. An unnamed infant was infected at Maimonides Hospital in Brooklyn last year. He died. Two weeks old. His death was reported in March 2012 and several days later, it was reported that TWO MORE Jewish infants contracted herpes. Jewish circumcision is a sexual assault. At least doctors don't put their mouths on children's penises and infect them with permanent, life threatening sexually transmitted diseases. When are people going to get it through their thick skulls that there is no such thing as a safe circumcision?

Rodrigo Girão
Rodrigo Girão

Christianity is in fact opposed to circumcision: 

 "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." -  Galatians 5

Locuta de Bjorg
Locuta de Bjorg

"amputations on the innocent" are a violation of Catholic moral law. It is hard to get more innocent than an infant! It is also taking a part of the child's body from him without his consent, which is stealing and a violation of the 7th Commandment.

Lessvirtualme
Lessvirtualme

Actually, it's the Catholics who generally didn't. Better brush up on your new testament. Only nutters like Americans follow bad cultural practices like genital mutilation routinely.

Colleen Gelinas
Colleen Gelinas

 don't say *most* circumcision rates are way down.  Everywhere else in the world they have caught on,.....with good reason.  It is completely unnecessary.

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

Hello, My comment in relation to internet etc dampening ill effect of incorrectly presented studies is more directed at western world as opposed to developing countries and those within. Places such as Africa are so vulnerable to those from developed western countries especially when they provide aid, money and guidence. I cant help but suspect the whole circumcision drive has more to do with influences from the US than anything else.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Joey Wrote:  "The circumcision drive in Africa is something thatwestern developed countries will now distance themselves from due to carefulanalysis and publication of multiple reviews of findings which obliterate themto pieces.'I dunno, Joey.  From what I've observed, it appears they have been all too eager to accept them.  I suspect it's from desperation.  There is a big void of logical thinking that goes along with desperation.

"The poor and very sad strategies being applied in Africa highlight the reasons why they have a HIV epidemic."

It's combination of problems, poor communications, failure to recognize a disaster in the making, a populace that can't control it's sexual proclivities and a dearth of education.

" The poor and very sad strategies being applied in Africa highlight the reasons why they have a HIV epidemic."There is a unique problem with HIV, it's long latency period.  That is, it can infect a person and not show any symptoms for 3 - 5 years but the person is infectious and can spread the virus during this time.  In Africa, it appears the first infections came in the late 1960's so the virus was spreading all this time and no body knew it.

But, there was another problem.  Africa does not have the research infrastructure to quickly develop a medical response to something like this.  Even when it was discovered, the communications are not available to spread the message of what it is.  Then, it had to be understood enough to get the message out that it is spread sexually and change behaviors.This kind of thing is a major challenge for Africa, challenges that don't exist in the developed world.

"I beleive that internet and developed communications is playing a role in dampening misinformatioin distrobuted via traditional media. The truth is there and available at the fingertips of most however "sometimes we only see what we want to see" regardless."

This is another problem.  Most African tribesmen do not have access to the internet and will never see the information.  This puts them in a particularly vulnerable position.  There are also long standing tribal practices that hinder the process and spread the virus.Thankfully, most of these factors do not exist elsewhere.

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

Appoligies for the double post Spelling is not my strength so cut and past for spellcheck has controbuted.Cheers J

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

Hello. Yes Idid overstate (10-20%) the percentages and you are correct in the “stateaverage” being more around the 7% mark I would go as far as 8% (I did this toprovide believable balance to the reader predominantly US) Tasmania alreadyholds the target of 0.7% which is a believable but still high indication ofmedical need but as these are current figures for neonate circumcision lessthan 0.5% would make me more comfortable from a true percentage perspective. (Perhapsless) I would say we have some farmers and perhaps one maybe 2 old school smalltown doctors contributing. Queensland claims the 15-20% which bumps the averageto what it is. The Medicare system is currently subject to review highlightingthe fact that circumcision along with designer vigina is capturing Medicarerebate under the banner of purely cosmetic at the cost of the tax payer. For acircumcision costing $700 you would receive $60-85 from the government which ismore than 70% of the population will tolerate. Outcomes of review are due inthe coming weeks and I am confident the rebate will be withdrawn tocircumcision and all other similarly categorised procedures. This will be thenail in the coffin for circumcision in this country. Australia has withoutdoubt a younger culture which is perhaps more flexible to cultural change asopposed to the US but can give confident reassurance that there is but a delayin the US which will eventually mirror the views of most other developedsocieties within the world. It’s Inevitable just time

Hello. Yes Idid overstate (10-20%) the percentages and you are correct in the “stateaverage” being more around the 7% mark I would go as far as 8% (I did this toprovide believable balance to the reader predominantly US) Tasmania alreadyholds the target of 0.7% which is a believable but still high indication ofmedical need but as these are current figures for neonate circumcision lessthan 0.5% would make me more comfortable from a true percentage perspective. (Perhapsless) I would say we have some farmers and perhaps one maybe 2 old school smalltown doctors contributing. Queensland claims the 15-20% which bumps the averageto what it is. The Medicare system is currently subject to review highlightingthe fact that circumcision along with designer vigina is capturing Medicarerebate under the banner of purely cosmetic at the cost of the tax payer. For acircumcision costing $700 you would receive $60-85 from the government which ismore than 70% of the population will tolerate. Outcomes of review are due inthe coming weeks and I am confident the rebate will be withdrawn tocircumcision and all other similarly categorised procedures. This will be thenail in the coffin for circumcision in this country. Australia has withoutdoubt a younger culture which is perhaps more flexible to cultural change asopposed to the US but can give confident reassurance that there is but a delayin the US which will eventually mirror the views of most other developedsocieties within the world. It’s Inevitable just time

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Joey,  current circumcision rates are much lower.  Several years ago, it was around 7% and falling at the time.

Also, it is not the hospitals that are banning circumcision but the governments of the 7 (or 8?) states where it is no longer permitted in public hospitals.  It was a governmental decision.  Australia is leading the way in this effort and is ahead of (virtually) everyone else.  In The US, Medicaid doesn't pay for it any longer in 17 or 18 states (of 50 states).  Australia is clearly a leader.So far, circumcision has not been completely banned.  Private practitioners are still allowed to circumcise infants, just not in publlicly funded hospitals.  They have to do it elsewhere, most likely in the doctor's office.

.

Joeyblogger
Joeyblogger

I’m in Australia where current circumcision rates of new bornshave declined to 10-20% from 80-90% since 1970. There is a very clear view fromthe majority here that circumcision is of little benefit and should not be donewithout medical indication. Most public hospitals have banned the procedurefrom being done on the grounds of the hospital. Parents who are looking tocircumcise their sons really do speak in hushed tones about it and gravitate tothe very very few who share their view. If your child is born in a publichospital and you ask the question of the staff concerning circumcision theyvery swiftly educate you in the dangers and lack of need to circumcise followedby a clear statement that it is banned in this hospital. They will even go asfar as refusing to aid you in finding a private general practitioner who woulddo it. Hopefully currents trends continue and the practice of circumcisionbecomes obsolete and only for medical need. Circumcision has or did become partof western culture however Australia and New Zealand show how cultural changeis possible with time a good policy.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Joeyblogger wrote:    “As a parent I feel ulimatleyresponsible for all the decisions I make for my kids whether I'm informed ornot”

That is an excellent attitude!

“whether I'm informed or not. Its this factthat motivates me to firstly identify matters which are of importance andsecondly prompt a response of questioning and self education.”

This is where the problem comes in.  Circumcision in The US became so common, itwas like questioning a stop sign.  Itsimply never occurred to many to question it.

“Its getting harder and harder for people toplead ignorance these days.”

Indeed it is. It is common for people to have the internet and the information is attheir finger tips.  However, many do notuse the internet as an educational tool but instead as an entertainmentdevice/service.

“Alot of disclaimers will fore warn ofpossible but unlikley complications including death so if the doctor does nothave anything in writing he may be in a spot of bother.”

Well, yes. They do have the “informed consent” document but it does not go intospecifics and it is usually presented for a signature while the mother is inlabor.  At that time, she has virtuallyno way of accessing the information to make an informed decision.  Additionally, it is unlikely the doctor willadvise of a possible fatal outcome.  Thecircumcision procedure is often characterized as “just a snip” downplaying thepotential danger.  Since most people havenever heard of a circumcision death, that doesn’t even come into play in theirdecision process.

Circumcision deaths are carefullyhidden.  No doctor wants it known thathe/she has killed a child from this “simplest” of procedures and no parentwants it known that they killed their child because they couldn’t leave hissexual organ alone.  Unlike in otherdeaths, there is no media, no investigation by police and no autopsy.  It remains hidden from public view in thefiling cabinets of the doctor and hospital unless a nurse or other employeecalls the media.  In general, thecircumcision procedure is regarded as trimming finger nails or a hair cut.

After a wrongful circumcision in 1971 allhospitals adopted a form to document that the parents agreed to theprocedure.  It is simply that.  It doesn’t provide any information as to “unexpectedoutcomes.”

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

In the case of this mohel, he can not get medical malpractice insurance so no one gets any money for the child's rehabilitation (from the brain damage).

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Lynn, the  point of medical malpractice insurance is to pay for corrections necessary to address the malpractice, corrective surgery, counseling, etc.  This is for the benefit of the child, not the parents.

Lynn
Lynn

Personally, I don't believe parents should get anything when circumcisions go wrong. It was their own idiotic fault. The only person who suffers is the child. If they were stupid enough to let a herpes infected stranger suck their child's penis, they are entitled to nothing monetary wise in my opinion. You paid someone to sexually assault your child and your child died as a result. The parents should be thrown in jail.

Ohara30075
Ohara30075

Lynn, I think there is something expectant Jewish parents don't realize.

Since Mohels are not licensed medical professionals, (in most cases) they can not obtain medical malpractice insurance.  If something unexpected happens, they do not have the experience or the equipment on hand to address the emergency.In the case of Rabbi Fischer, it is unlikely the parents will get anything.  But they will have substantial expenses for the funeral and for the (unsuccessful) medical treatment of the herpes infection.

RE: still practicing:  Rabbi Fischer is unlikely to stop.  There was no punishment so he feels free to continue.  It is his occupation and when money becomes involved, ethics go out the door.  Mohels charge significantly more than the most expensive doctors and could become wealthy through this practice.  Some even have websites advertising their service and are prone to exaggeration of their qualifications.

If I remember correctly, there were two infants killed by Rabbi Fischer and three more left severely brain damaged.  The response:  Mayor Bloomberg did virtually nothing to stop the carnage.  Fischer walked away free and without sanctions to continue as before.

Lynn
Lynn

Moroni 8:8

Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/...

shadowfax42
shadowfax42

I love the way you say this, as though the religious ALWAYS follow the rules in their holy books, and as if loads of those rules don't contradict each other anyway. Funny.

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